Your client would like to display negative numbers in red on their Profit and Loss report

Assistant Boondogler

The Great and Bountiful Empire of the Swallow

Where does the pound sign go?

Didn't find your answer?

Do you feel the pound sign should go inside the bracket or outside?

Also, why do the septics call # a pound sign?

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Replying to Tax Dragon:

Or should that be..."(Have you not read The Constant Gardener)?"?
...

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The # means pound as in lb, not pound as in £, it's from an archaic way of writing lb with a crossbar through the top, which does look quite like #

I thought immediately the £ should be inside the brackets, but now I don't like either and will refuse to write them, I'll stick to either no currency symbol with pounds being assumed (for working papers) and a symbol at the top of the column in accounts.

The minus sign goes before the pound sign though, hence why I think brackets should be all encompassing, but I think both look wrong.

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Replying to Duggimon:

Interesting.

£-1,000
-£1,000
£(-1,000)

This is definitely the technical debate of the day. Where is the legislation? I went straight for the Interpretation Act, but can't find the answer there. It must be somewhere.

I think if I was using a minus sign in writing (as opposed to in a spreadsheet, when the software puts it on the left of the cell - left of everything), I might use a minus and brackets, as in the third of my three. It looks clearest to me, and only an accountant might read it as a double negative... :-) [oh, and possibly the 547,429 people that used Aweb to find out how to display negative numbers in Excel...]

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Replying to Tax Dragon:

Why use the brackets if you've got the minus sign in there! I suppose you'd do it in red as well and write it on the other side of the paper just to be sure!

Absolute lunatic, you're a danger to the profession.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:

Tax Dragon wrote:

Interesting.

£(-1,000)

Surely that is just £1,000?

For my part, always inside the braces.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:

You can easily avoid the double negative:

-£(-1,000)

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Replying to Tax Dragon:

Tax Dragon wrote:

£(-1,000)

That's a double negative. Bad grammar. Didn't they learn you nothing in school?

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Replying to Duggimon:

Duggimon wrote:

The # means pound as in lb, not pound as in £, it's from an archaic way of writing lb with a crossbar through the top, which does look quite like #

Not heard that one before, Duggimon.

I always thought it was something to do with Americans using some bastardised version of a proper keyboard.

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Cannot think of any place to use either.
Comparatives in the old days of disclosures in Directors reports were in English
Comparison for profit, if a loss stated loss, no other negative indicator
Most people now would probably think in speadsheet , - means negative.

My software still uses brackets, but no £ sign most of the time
All bar 7 of my companies qualify as Micro so no notes needed

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Replying to Paul Crowley:

My spreadsheets are all set to use brackets, the tiny little minus signs are too easy to miss.

Custom format: #,##0.00;(#,##0.00);-

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(£x,xxx)
Preferably in red - although if printing, still to be done in B&W. Woe betide anyone who wastes colour ink on negative numbers.

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Replying to John Isabel:

John Isabel wrote:

Preferably in red.

And why isn't that a double-negative?

Or, for that matter, when someone changes the narrative e.g. from "profit" to "loss" to describe a negative number.

CC has opened a can of worms here.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:

Tax Dragon wrote:

Or, for that matter, when someone changes the narrative e.g. from "profit" to "loss" to describe a negative number.

It is normally fine when you have a profit and a loss on the same schedule:
Profit/(loss) for the year
or
(Loss)/profit for the year

I agree though if you have (Loss) for the year it looks odd, but it really should be done to avoid a double negative.

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By Bobbo

13th Oct 2020 14:22

Pound sign outside of the brackets always.

Negative numbers in spreadsheets coloured in red or with a minus sign rather than brackets are (amongst) my pet hates.

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By SXGuy

13th Oct 2020 14:46

Please don't ever write (-1,000) you will confuse plenty of people.

Is that a double negative now? If so does it now mean a positive?

Either or imo.

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Replying to SXGuy:

For clarity, I meant "write" as in the way Le Carré writes a novel: in a context where () doesn't mean -. () doesn't mean - in maths either.

It's only accountants (and places that accountants have influenced) that use () for that purpose. AFAIK.

I wouldn't use £(-x) in a financial document.

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It probably does not matter provided used consistently both for an individual client and firm wide.
My recent daily prints from Barclays now use ? instead of £
Does it really matter?
I know what it means

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Replying to Paul Crowley:

Paul Crowley wrote:

I know what it means

You think you know what it means...

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Replying to Paul Crowley:

Paul Crowley wrote:

I know what it means

I don't care if you know what it means.

I still won't be using ? as some kind of woke replacement for £.

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Replying to lionofludesch:

Not my choice
Carp Barclays Bank

Back to £ today

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How our education system has failed us.

The symbols are parentheses, not brackets !

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Replying to emanresu:

That depends on what's inside them.

I don't think key financial data can be (correctly) described as "parenthetical".

Just saying, like.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:

Tax Dragon wrote:

Just saying, like.

I'm sure I copyrighted this at some point .....

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Replying to Tax Dragon:

"You know the difference between you and me? I make this look good"

(finally a film quote i wont receive threats of a ban for - even if it doesnt actually fit that well to the topic at hand)

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Replying to John Isabel:

John Isabel wrote:

(finally a film quote i wont receive threats of a ban for...)

"we at the FBI do not have a sense of humor we are aware of".

It must be catching.

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Definitely outside the brackets. But it's not a feeling. It's just the case.

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Just who are the septics? Are they taking anything for it? Or are they sceptical of the efficacy?

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Replying to sammerchant:

An ancient people that worshipped the sign of hash and died out because they took a pound of it every morning for breakfast.

'Twas they that invented the hash brown. I thank them for that legacy on a reasonably regular basis.

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Just who are the septics? Are they taking anything for it? Or are they sceptical of the efficacy?

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Parentheses and currency symbols have no business appearing together. The only time to use parentheses is where positive and negative numbers are appearing together (such as in columns of figure) or notes with comparatives, when the currency symbol can appear at to top of each column.

If you are just quoting a figure you can quote it without the brackets and use words to say whether that number is debit/credit/overdrawn, etc

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In Xero (I think) if you do a breakdown of creditors, the credits are shown as positive, and the debits are shown as negative.

I think they do this on purpose just to see if I'm awake...

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If we are talking arithmetic here, why doesn't the sales figure in the profit and loss account appear with a minus, in brackets or whatever? After all it is a credit, which is arithmetically a minus. If that happened then all profit figures would also have a minus in front of them. Try explaining that to clients. So we accountants just ditch the minuses for presentational purposes, when needed.

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Replying to raybackler:

raybackler wrote:

So we accountants just ditch the minuses for presentational purposes, when needed.

In other words, we manipulate them to meet our needs. That sounds like us ;-)

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